I came across the story on http://www.huffingtonpost.com about Taylor Swift making her stand on feminism after a Ok Magazine put up a false headline about Taylor Swift expecting a baby when she was not.I made a comment in support of Taylor Swifts stand,i got so many replies.These are the most replies i have ever gotten so far from just a comment.People were debating about this story.Some were in support of Taylor Swift while other were not.Here are the replies to my comment:
- Angela Mia Ayako · Blogger at Www.angellyricstopics.blogspot.com
i think it is great that taylor swift stood up for herself http://angellyricstopics.blogspot. com
Ben Wagner · Top Commenter · UC Santa Cruz
What the hell does feminism have to do with Taylor Swift's serial dating issue. I personally agree with the idea that the media should focus on something more important then some silly pop stars personal life. But at the same time, doesn't Taylor Swift make a living off of songs that are based in part on her personal life, so I would think it natural for the media to target this aspect of her being. Also, every time I hear someone talking about feminism I wonder what exactly they are getting at, is it first wave, second wave, or third wave feminism; because there are a number of differences between them (which makes it hard to understand where someone is coming from when they use the blanket term feminism, I have a feeling most people who espouse the word 'Feminism' have no real idea of what they are talking about, except for the simple female power concept; which is not enough reason to justify one's actions or thoughts.
Ben Wagner · Top Commenter · UC Santa Cruz
this is what I'm talking about 'Pretension' to the utmost, because when a "Feminist" is usually asked to explain themselves in depth, the most they have are tired cliché post-modern talking points from the 90's.
Karen Coons Bush · Top Commenter · Jacksonville, Florida
Barb Winslow- It's hilarious that they really don't have an answer because they just all follow what the "feminist" leaders tell them they should think.
Hitomi Shue · Top Commenter · Arizona State University
Ben Wagner - Preach! Most people who wave the feminist banner can't even tell you truly what it is. It's not about equality, but rights for women. Beyond that, I'm sure they don't know that it's a sociopolitical ideology that has as many factions as any other sociopolitical ideology that claims they have the answer to their problems.
Eric Stambol · Top Commenter · Los Angeles, California
Ben is correct. She's built a career on defining herself by who she dates.... but now wants to pretend she's offended by it?!
Clair Ruckman · Top Commenter
Her career bypasses both of those bums. The one guy I've never even heard of. Women are not defined by guys they dated. She is successful in her own right, and them being mentioned is sexist.
Ben Wagner · Top Commenter · UC Santa Cruz
You know I just might have to follow old Barb's comments from now on, to keep a muzzle on her of course! Maybe calling her bull&^% can be my new past time.
Ben Wagner · Top Commenter · UC Santa Cruz
Also, just so that everyone is aware this thread is being censored by the administration; because they have removed three or four of my comments (which held no foul language, or anything uncalled for) which were necessary to make my points, well. I find it funny that my comments are all shuffled out of order to present a fabricated discussion, and of course old Barb is able to say whatever she wants, all her comments have not been altered at all as far as I can see! very interesting. Maybe they will post them in the end, we will see.
Hitomi Shue · Top Commenter · Arizona State University
Barb - Have you taken any Women's Studies courses? Any at all? Just a question before I just throw out things like Radical Feminism, Ecofeminism, Cultural Feminism. These are all different feminist theories based upon views about the supposed patriarchy to differences in that some believe that men and women are the same and, thus, should be treated the same or that there are inherent differences between men and women that should be celebrated, but that does not mean inequality over universal similarities. I mean, really... before you jump with the in crowd, learn about it!
Ben Wagner · Top Commenter · UC Santa Cruz
More red herrings Barb? is that really all you got. Do you really think that playing the grammar police bolsters YOUR argument. You're a funny one aren't you.
Hitomi Shue · Top Commenter · Arizona State University
Barb Winslow - Oh, and let us not get into a discussion on feminism being historically for white women and their needs because there certainly is much to even say on that debate within the realm of feminism. There is absolutely no way to simplify the complexity of the subject of gender issues, as it pertains to feminism.
Rob Cukowski · Top Commenter · Denver, Colorado
Awe, poor insecure Ben thinks he is being censored. LOL!
Ben Wagner · Top Commenter · UC Santa Cruz
Ok, Rob has proven to me that you people have no ground to stand on-not one person has answered my questions with anything more then insults. If anyone wants to follow these people, well I feel just as sorry for you as I do for them. I've made my peace-and know when to realize that arguing with the ignorant, makes one even more so.
Ben Wagner · Top Commenter · UC Santa Cruz
I'd bet money, that old Barb is up to her scandalous ways again, posing as Rob. Is that you Barb? it must be because her comments stopped right when Rob's started-and pretty much going along the same lines sounding like the same person.
Rob Cukowski · Top Commenter · Denver, Colorado
Now Ben is getting paranoid. Want your binky and blanket Ben?
Rob Cukowski · Top Commenter · Denver, Colorado
No Ben, I am my own person. You are just a paranoid psychotic that can't comprehend that there could be multiple people who think you are wrong.
Kris Chringle · Top Commenter · University of South Florida
Samantha Anne it's hilarious that you actually think this is valid News. It's meaningless. And, since we're talking about Hu Post and Taylor Swift. Hu Post is not a valid source of news. and, Taylor Swift is a terrible musician. She can't sing in key. and her songs sound like they were written by high schoolers.
Barb Winslow · Top Commenter · Missoula, Montana
Hitomi; Ah, I get it. You don't like that Taylor's a white girl. What a sad commentary.
Barb Winslow · Top Commenter · Missoula, Montana
Rob; I am flattered that Ben feels threatened enough by me to think I'm posing as you. Thanks for that. :D
Attia Rante · Top Commenter
When have you heard any man referred to FIRST as someone's husband or boyfriend? Ever? Men are always introduced by their accomplishments, women almost never.
Barb Winslow · Top Commenter · Missoula, Montana
Ken; C'mon, Ken, keep naming them...this is getting fun!
Samantha Cahill · Top Commenter
Eric Stambol funny i thought she built her career on her music and talent. you're comment only proves her point perfectly.
Gail Davis · Top Commenter · Professor at Duke University
It doe run the other way at times...for my hubby it's Dr. and Mr. Clements or at a conference it's, "I'm James, Gail's husband".
Kiila Blackheart · Top Commenter · Player at Second Life
"serial dating issue'.. really? Let me define feminism for you.. get a dictionary and stop expecting women to do your work for you!
Ben Wagner · Top Commenter · UC Santa Cruz
I'm getting bored of this now to be honest, ok Killa-again all I ask is for you to define WHAT type of feminist are you? and explain why you believe thusly. It has nothing to do with my ability to understand the differences, I know them quite well in fact, this is why I ask; to see if you know beyond cliché. I can explain to you where I'm coming from why can't you (I'm not asking for a dictionary definition, I'm asking for your thoughts and motivations in concern to the many different types of feminism?) Seriously you guys are just sounding silly at this point.
Ben Wagner · Top Commenter · UC Santa Cruz
Something interesting, then I'm going to bed; watch Samantha Anne's likes, when the general likes on my original comment go up (at this moment it was 33 jumping to 34) almost at the same moment the likes for Samantha Anne's comments (at this moment 34 jumping to 35) goes almost in lock step...to maybe keep just one like above the original comments likes. Probably coincidence? of maybe something else...well it seems odd to me statistically speaking.
Hitomi Shue · Top Commenter · Arizona State University
Barb - I love how, out of everything you said, you immediately went for just the race rather than answer the simple question about your knowledge on a sociopolitical platform and the issues that are within. I never said I don't like Taylor Swift because she's a white girl (I listen to her music because it's clean for the kids and it is fun music); I only said that, historically (and many other people of color, and fellow white proclaimed feminist, have also said it), feminism have only served the issues of white women - notably white, middle class women. I have zero problem with white people; I'm married to a white man, I have half white children. I have a white stepfather and my mom is half Japanese and half black.
The point is feminism is just a buzzword, a trend taken on by most who just "feel" things, rather than have any ... See More
Scott Charlton · Follow · Top Commenter
I get where Taylor and Ariana are coming from, but I have no clue what feminism is. Honestly, people follow so many disparate things these days, I find no interest in sorting through it all.
Mark Ashwell · Top Commenter · Leicester, United Kingdom
Maybe feminist has a different meaning in USA. In Europe it has nothing to do with "female power", it simply means equality. It applies to men and woman who believe that people should be treated equally.
Mary McGuirk · Follow · Top Commenter
Ben Wagner, throughout historical times, women have been defined by the man they belong to. My generation (65 baby boomer) was the first where a few of us actually believed we are okay as people, not just asterisks to the man we belong to. It isn't a matter of whether we are single or married or somewhere in between or past those stages, our identity is based on what we choose...in my case it has been my kids and grandkids now, but it was a career and aging parents at another time, and had been husbands and or lovers over time, but now...i own my own time, and my schedule is so free of obligations, that i am always able to do the things that appeal to me. i don't have to be joined at the hip to a guy to be happy.
Pete Ludwig · Top Commenter · Le Honcho at Brandywine Valley Consulting
Ms Swift really only asked that she be identified by her accomplishments rather than who she is attached to and also that the magazine not push copy with misleading headlines insinuating she is pregnant. (good luck with that one). She is a bigger star than anyone she has dated (although a case could be made for John Mayer having been bigger at the time). Also, a lot of males write pretty much exclusively confessional songs and don't take heat for it. Start chipping away at your gender double standards, there seem to be a few of them kicking around. Or since you go to UC Santa Cruz, start talking to just about anyone there about it and they'll set you straight on this. The PC hippies have a point on this one.
Aleks RodrÃguez · Top Commenter
I have no issue with feminists who are all about equality but seriously this is grasping at straws. She is that Harry guys ex and she is currently dating the Dj.
Those are facts and trying to find something wrong in that is really stretching it.
Clair Ruckman · Top Commenter
@Aleks, They are unimportant facts to her life. It also dates back to the hierarchy of how you introduce someone in culture, and describe people. Before women pushed towards equality. Women were defined by the men in their lives accomplishments. Instead of a simple I am x awesome, because of xyz. My sister-in-law is a doctor. Her husband is an EMS worker. She has a more successful career, and is more accomplished than he is. So proper etiquette would be, "Let me introduce Dr. Andrea (Last name)her husband (Since he doesn't have a doctorate.) Timothy (last name). If someone in your company is political their introduction goes ahead of doctors. So lets say he was a senator than it would be ,"Let me introduce Senator Timothy (last name), and his wife Dr.Andrea (last name) Which, couple does the introductions is whoever knows ever... See More
Christine Hill · Top Commenter · Owner at Self-Employed
It isn't just Taylor Swift. Jennifer Aniston is still "Brad Pitt's ex," for example. But Brad Pitt, who has been married more times than Jennifer Anniston and no doubt has "known" at least as many people of the opposite sex, is never described as "Jennifer Aniston's ex" unless it's in the context of a quote ABOUT Jennifer Aniston. John Mayer isn't described as Taylor Swift's ex, either. Why is that?
And "serial dating"? Isn't that what you're SUPPOSED to do when you're a 20-something?! And her songs could be about anyone. The media is obsessed with figuring out who her songs are about, but she never uses their names. Neither does she discuss her relationships while she's in them. She simply doesn't hide them.
And let's talk about men. You complain that Taylor Swift has a "serial dating" issue because she's had a succession of monogamous relationships (which in your mind justifies reducing her identity to one borrowed from the men she's dated), while men who have sex with random women night after night are . . . just doing what guys are supposed to do? Do we identify them in the context of their sexual activity? Do we complain that they are serial "daters"?
Of course not.
Mara Seaforest · Top Commenter
I daresay most male songwriters' songs reference some past romantic involvement, or a wish for one that never came true. Are they defined by who they once dated? I rest my case.
Maryanne Slater · Top Commenter · Proprietor at Maryanne Slater Desktop Services
September Loraine Courtney -- So no matter what your own accomplishments are, you're only important when you're with a well-known guy. Got it.
Scott Charlton · Follow · Top Commenter
Samantha Anne Why would it be hilarious? Men can understand equality, but we have no cultural context for what women deal with or think. To say we do would be to understand the stereotypes but not the details. Feminism was dissected reasonably by Ben's first statement here. There are many nuances even to the women following the philosophy. People who aren't following it probably wouldn't know the details of it.
Maryanne Slater · Top Commenter · Proprietor at Maryanne Slater Desktop Services
Christine Hill -- Well said.
Nancy Russo · Top Commenter
@ben it always comes down to money! STOP counting all the money a women makes no matter HOW she makes it and keep the focus on you. Men today are more and more intimidated by women who make more money then they do. It used to be that men actually thought they could control a women with sex, oh yes, not the other way around. We would jump off a bridge for that huge love thing between your legs. A women could be not attractive but open her legs and there is no shortage of men at any age. Have brains, looks AND money, now that's another story, men are not as secure as you think and there are more men today that are gold diggers then ever before. Women be careful sex is not love and take care of yourselves first because there are no guarantees in this life, especially that men are not the most honest people when it comes to sex. Lets face it you know that's true.
Ben Wagner · Top Commenter · UC Santa Cruz
I wasn't going to get sucked back into this...but, I just have to ask; is all this really just about status? and who gets introduced first based on their accomplishments? I personally don't care either (in concern to one's status) way women or men...is capitalist recognition really what this is all about? Personally, I have little respect for your typical capitalist go getter (women or men) and care little for status. If capitalism is what you people are hanging your hat on, then we are not even on the same page.
Hitomi Shue · Top Commenter · Arizona State University
Listen, I understand that headlines say what they do, but is it really sexism or that certain celebrities (more notably) but their stuff out there? Britney Spears and Lindsay Lohan have both moved out to being talked about a whole lot less because they do most celebrity men do... they don't talk about their private life and they don't frequent places that involve much media activity or they give them absolutely nothing.
They problem with the argument about male singers is that they don't openly date many famous singers nor do they talk about it. Not to mention, they blame themselves as being the direct reason of making bad decisions equally as much as they blame themselves not having the foresight. Also, tell me which males almost exclusively write their own lyrics. I think that a good number have ghostwriters where Taylor writes almost all of her material by herself. It's a fantastic thing and she's good at the storyline writing format and makes details vivid, but there is a price to pay for that. I know Taylor Swift has written more than love and break up sons but her singles are, which is what the general public hears because a good chunk of them will never buy her album. The male singers make their songs about women who are really faceless because we don't see them.
Hitomi Shue · Top Commenter · Arizona State University
Ooo Nancy, you are funny! I love how people say not to worry about other people despite those other people making their bread and butter on being relevant by more than just their music.
Janet Jackson got married at the highest point in her career. The world found out that she got married... when she got a divorces 10 YEARS LATER.
Michele K. Henderson · Follow · Top Commenter · Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Ben, I am a feminist and I'd be happy to explain the "differences" between 1st, 2nd and 3rd wave feminism, and I know many other women can do the same. But the truth is, you (and far too few others) REALLY don't care what they are, because the minute we begin to give you an understanding just what it is all about, we've got people to jump right in and tell us we're "angry", we're "feminazi", and we cannot be "reasoned" with, and we are too sensitive or lack a sense of humor. This Taylor Swift article is a perfect example. There is a very simple and easy explanation of WHY this is a feminist issue. But instead of you asking for genuine clarification to your confusion, if that is truthfully what you want, you use it as an opportunity to be insulting and degrading to women, telling us outright that we don't even know ourselves what it is we value, what it is we support, and what it is we are even talking about. Are you even aware of how truly insulting that sounds, like we're all just too dumb to know any better? Have you ever even thought about it like that before? Have you thought about how YOU would respond if someone told you that you don't even know what you're talking about?
Celia Waite · Top Commenter
Men have written songs about women forever, so what difference does the song topic make? That's not really the point of the story.
Michele K. Henderson · Follow · Top Commenter · Tuscaloosa, Alabama
In case you are GENUINELY interested, let me explain a few differences to you for easy clarification. Feminism is series of political and cultural movements in which its supporters advocate for the equality of women in the political, social, cultural, and economic fronts, among other areas. FIRST wave feminism, at least here in the US and in very simple ideology, was the suffrage movement, giving women the right to vote and the right to inherit property. In the US, women have been allowed to vote for 95 years. Since women have achieved that milestone here and in Europe, it is rare that you will hear much discussion of "first wave feminism" unless it is in a historical sense, or if we are talking about securing political rights for women in certain African or Middle Eastern countries.
Second wave feminism sprang up in the 1960's... See More
Pete Ludwig · Top Commenter · Le Honcho at Brandywine Valley Consulting
Ben Wagner - it's about not being reduced to what males she has been associated with and how, it's about recognizing her intrinsic worth as a human being who happens to be female rather than as an accessory for males who have deigned to date her. She has accomplished quite a lot as a pop star, for people to only recognize her by the males she has associated with and not even mention that hey, she's a repeat multiplatinum pop star who writes all her own material is all kinds of wrong.
Michele K. Henderson · Follow · Top Commenter · Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Hitomi, that is a perfect example of post feminism ideology, with 3rd wave overtones.
Dave Nice
Imagine if she worried about children being taken from their houses and sold as wives and exploited...imagine that type of Feminism...oh wait that doesnt help her individualism...
Clair Ruckman · Top Commenter
Ben Wagner, Actually the etiquette of introductions are more rooted from old nobility, oppose to capitalism.
Jill Nesbitt · Top Commenter · Works at Self-Employed
Wow, did you have to duck to miss that point? It's not about her serial dating. It's the fact that OK! found it necessary to include who Swift is dating in order to get readers to recollect who they were speaking about. Wouldn't it have made more sense to say "Multi-Grammy Winning" or "Platinum Artist"? No, it's much more important to mention a few young men in her past/present that are nowhere near as successful as she is. The point dear Ben is that Men do not define women. Comprende?
Jill Nesbitt · Top Commenter · Works at Self-Employed
Hitomi, let's for a moment say you won a big award and there was an announcement in the paper. Rather than proclaiming your successes they described you as your Father's Daughter and your Brother's Sister as well as the ex of the guy you dated in High School. Only lightly touching on the fact that you alone won this prestigious award. Kinda Sh*tty, huh?
Nancy Russo · Top Commenter
Taylor is in her 20s you can do anything in your 20s and get away with it. you are at the prime of your life and Taylor she is the personification of a girly girl but not weak. I don't listen to her music but I like her style meaning girl power she has a good support net work of women friends, now lets see if they stick together.
Ben Wagner · Top Commenter · UC Santa Cruz
Clair what does old nobility and capitalism have in common....POWER!
Frank Rauen · Top Commenter · Metropolitan State College of Denver
Samantha Anne I get that she thinks this is more important then women getting acid thrown in their face for rejecting men. She threw a tantrum because a tabloid magazine didn't show her as much respect as she would have liked, oh the struggle.
Cave Johnson · Top Commenter · Works at The Moon
Guy doesn't get it; writes long winded exposition ranting about it.
Must be Tuesday.
Jen McDaniel · LIOS Graduate College
Ben: When people refer to the waves of Feminism it refers to the history of Women's Rights Movement. It labels specific eras in time when progressive rights for women were being achieved. The 1st, 2nd and 3rd waves are actually important to understand. Starting with the Suffragettes of the 19th Century fighting for political equality (1st Wave) then Roe v Wade, Title IX, draft of the ERA, VAWA etc., fighting for social, sexual and cultural equality (2nd Wave) most agree (though some would still argue) that we are presently in the (3rd Wave) where all the aims of the 2nd wave have still not been achieved but new aims are also being attempted ie. global equality, gender discrimination, education for girls, domestic violence and abuse, military rape, FGM, Sex Trafficking, Child Marriage, LGBTQ, and many other human rights not just domestically but on a larger global scale. As you can see these advances do not just benefit women but all of society, they are not just Women's Rights they are Human Rights! I truly hope this is informative and helpful as all, both men and women are needed to continue to advance society.
Alaina Michelle Ralph · Principal at Alaina Michelle Ralph LLC
What a lovely and accurate post. I appreciate you putting it so eloquently. Often you will also hear another version of feminism... The one that says for women to stand in their own power and to gain more equality, men have to lose theirs (and that this is the ultimate goal of feminism). It comes from fear of change and makes it easier to dismiss any challenge to the status quo.
If you are not a woman you probably know and care for one. If your believe that person is deserving of equality then you are probably a feminist.
Ben Wagner · Top Commenter · UC Santa Cruz
Michele, old Barb, Jill just admit that your a third wave feminist that does not believe in equality of value between the sexes! dog eat dog right? king of the hill, subversion you know?
Hitomi Shue · Top Commenter · Arizona State University
Jill Nesbit - I wrote a reply and posted it yesterday and it obviously didn't post. I don't really want to re-write it to give a full explanation but here are the key points: 1. This is a tabloid magazine, not a newspaper article about her achievements. Every other week, Brad and Angelina are on the verge of breaking up or the Kardashians are pregnant or throwing their men out the house. I would not be so weak as to let such an outlet get to me so badly when even there are things written about men and them being in the closet or whipped. 2. My answer depends on why I wad attached to any of those men. My father might have gave financial help for my education, by way of working his ass off, which led to my achievement. My brother may have helped with flexing a competitive spirit to preserve and I outdid him. My ex could have led to the inspiration of a song or great analytical novel about relationships and love, which I would otherwise have no direct personal experience with it (which I'm sure Taylor wouldn't deny this, if really, truly asked). I admire Queen Elizabeth I and she gave very little care about being a woman in a man's world, when it all boiled down to the good of the people. Roman women made names for themselves by having their own businesses. You either decide to play the victim my harsh words or just dismiss them. Man or woman, you will always have people who want to bring you down and no policy or law will ever take that out of human nature.
Jen McDaniel · LIOS Graduate College
Hitomi Shue you are correct that there are legitimate and real arguments to be made about feminism advancing only middle class (probably can even be argued only upper middle class) white women. In fact, the domestic violence movement was started by amazing women in African American communities who still unjustly and unfairly do not receive the same DV services and resources as white women. But change has got to start somewhere! In my ideal world white women will continue to use the unearned white privilege they hold to speak out, start the discussion, gain recognition, acquire funding and political support and propel social change forward. Which again, in my ideal world would in turn open avenues and create platforms for awareness so other voices can come forward and be heard from all women of color, LGBQT, lower socio-economic classes and other marginalized communities. I truly believe in social justice and equality in the core of my being and I believe that this is the best way that I can leverage my unearned white privilege as a women for the benefit of my entire sisterhood. It has to start somewhere!!!
Riley Shocke · Indiana University
Samantha Anne Why? Because he has a different opinion? Everything that happens to you is not because you're a woman, everything that happens to you is not because you need feminism or don't. Your need to relate everything to those things, doesn't make sense to me, but does seem prevalent in 'ism's. The odd thing to me, is that it seems to be women that care most who people are in relationships with, especially celebrities. Most men, could not care, nor could they even tell you who is dating who. Yet, you seem to think you need feminism, to cure what stems largely from your own gender.
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